Talk:Virgin Graticule

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What is sufficient proof of being there? I just found out I wasn't the first in the Dortmund graticule(51 7) yesterday, but there was no page of the Dortmund graticule before I created it. And the real first hash contains no pictures or proof in any other form.--Arvid 10:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the geohash in question, and think it's a planning page. At least until somebody decides to post their story there. Someday I hope to post a table somewhere, but until then here's my worksheet --Thomcat 17:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Does a successful Origin Geohash count as a Virgin Graticule award, if no-one has ever achieved a hash in the graticule previously? --CJ 06:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say no. I wouldn't count it myself. I see the Origin (or Displaed Origin) as a back-up geohash for the day that you can't get to the real geohash. -Robyn 12:27, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

What about one like this? No proof, plus if you zoom in on the map the point is not in the road. --excellentdude 06:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I saw it, and I think it's pretty weak, but I didn't say anything because I expect that he will do a better geohash within a couple of weeks and then it won't really matter which one is counted as the virgin geohash. If someone else come along in that graticule and does a real geohash before Kortney does, then there's a challenge. I didn't want to jump on a newbie and say "hey you did it wrong!" -Robyn 06:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Right, zoom in on the satellite instead of the map and the point is basically on the edge (verge?) of the road. Definitely doable. Worst case, someone else can claim virgin with better proof, as I did in Bellingham, Washington. --Thomcat 06:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What if someone has claimed it, say's they will provide the proof yet 4 months later still has no picture's, could a counter claimed hash take it if the person doesn't provide the proof?

If you've got proof, and they don't, go for it. I did that to a grat.  :-) --excellentdude 01:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
If their claim is dubious, then I think it's okay for someone who reached it for sure to swoop in, being gracious and prepared to relinquish it if they return with proof. But if it's pretty lear that the person reached it, e.g. it was at a very accessible place and they said they went there, and it was in the first couple of months before precedent had been set on proof, I'd hesitate to steal. Virgin graticule should go to the first to successfully geohash a graticule, when they prove it, not to someone who came along later but was the first to have the technology to prove doing so. If that means some gratcules never have ribbons awarded, well that's okay by me. -Robyn 03:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, This is the page that I was inquiring about 2008-12-16 -37 174. I now have 2 successful hash's in this gratical, only the one that I got yesterday is my first one with actual proof (just brought a GPSr) TunezNZ 23:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
If you've got pictures and proof, I don't see why it shouldn't be yours over this one. I mean, leave his, but I'd say you can take one, too. --excellentdude 02:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I disagree, because does anyone actually doubt the December user reached the point? But it's not something I'm going to put any energy into fighting. I would make a Virgin ribbon and put it on his page. But if you do take it, at minimum leave a note on his talk page making it clear that he is entitled to take the ribbon from you when he has proof. -Robyn 03:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Well there is still 57 more Virgin Graticule's in New Zealand, So I will keep on going and try for a few others.
In theory, if someone was crazy enough, could they get multiple virgin graticules? I'm asking this with full knowledge that if the answer is "yes", I could inadvertently start a graticule virginity hunt so that a group of 5 or 6 people have 30 graticules to their names with none for the rest? --Hewhoamareismyself 16:47, 20 January 2011 (EST)
Sure, if you can travel there, you can get multiple grats. However, they get further and further from your "home". I think the answer from the "rest of us" is "Knock yourself out; we're glad you're geohashing." Jiml 13:09, 21 January 2011 (EST)

[edit] Two Sorts of Virgin Graticule Ribbon

I think there should be a second rank of Virgin Graticule ribbon, one for someone who evidently went, before they had a camera, or before we had rules about proof, or who isn't around anymore to clarify whether they reached the exact spot; and another for the first to provide proper proof. This allows recognizing the early pioneers, but doesn't leave the person who proved the conquest later feeling unfairly treated. I want to do this in advance of a project to comb the old archives, from when many people didn't write expedition reports, and find as many original expeditions as possible. I don't want to have to yank Virgin Graticule ribbons in the process, but I also don't like the original pioneers being ignored just because they didn't take GPS pictures. -Robyn 18:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a bit problematic. Where do you draw the line? What's sufficient proof, what isn't? Currently, people accept anything that's plausible, and I think it's ok that way. Invalidating any virgin graticule which was not proven with a GPS shot would basically turn half of Germany upside-down.
What, for an example, about 2008-10-03_48_9 (in my home graticule)? They had a GPS, but that's all you can see. Surroundings are not really recognizable either. Also, they didn't link it to the graticule page. I found it with a systematical search and, since I then considered the virgin graticule to be gone, did not put too much effort into quickly finding an accessible spot for my first home expedition. Or, what about 2008-11-19 47 7? This expedition "report" was done from a transcript of a radio report. They never reported on the wiki. Believe me - if the radio expedition hadn't been there, commonly considered as being successful, there would have been another one in winter or early spring latest. --Ekorren 19:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for answering. My intention with this is not to dethrone the earliest pioneers. I want the real first person to reach a point to have the Virgin graticule ribbon, even if they had no camera and no GPS. My intention was to have something to give to the first person to prove it and/or thoroughly document it, so that I don't have to take their ribbons away when I find older obscure expeditions in the graticule. I'm glad it's not a problem in Germany, but in North America I've noticed a couple of cases of "who is that? he didn't prove anything. It's my virgin graticule now."
If I turn up earlier evidence of an expedition and take the ribbon away from someone who claimed it later, there might be hard feelings. If I replace their ribbon with a "First to Prove" variation, then they won't be unhappy. Or am I being too nice? -Robyn 19:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
What was wrong with the Petting the graticule achievement? -- relet 19:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC) ;) Ah, I see. Your problem is the other way around.. why not award the ribbon to both parties in this case, adding a "(and being the first to prove it)" to the text? -- relet 19:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I want to do, except that it's not an "and" because they weren't the first, they were only the first to prove it. -Robyn 04:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Do want, as you can see with what I have talked about in the previous thread above, someone may clame to have gone to a spot but have not provided picture's, and then another person down the track does provide proof... Cmon pic's or it didn't happen.TunezNZ 04:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] How to determine whether a graticule is Virgin?

I apologize for being dense, but how can I determine whether a graticule near me is still Virgin? There are no expeditions and no geohashers listed on the graticule's page, but maybe someone did an expedition and simply didn't link to the graticule page. Should I search the entire "Category: Coordinates Reached" list to see if that graticule appears there? (I want the Virgin Graticule ribbon, and I'm willing to travel to a nearby graticule to get it, and my family already thinks I'm crazy.) Thanks. Sara 14:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You never can tell for sure, but you can check a number of typical poorly done reports. The first thing would be to check for a Meetup in LAT LON category. Expeditions done with the appropriate template are categorised there. Then, take a look into What links here from the graticule page in the toolbox on the left side. Sometimes pages aren't categorised, but still link to the graticule page. Last not least, do a search for the name of the graticule, also for the coordinates, to see whether they turn up on other suspicious pages, and check them whether they contain a report. Maybe you can think up a few more searches. If all of these checks do not surface any earlier expedition, the chance is pretty high there hasn't been one.
In any case, if you dig out an old expedition, make sure to rebuild the page to use the appropriate template and categorise it, maybe rename it according to the standards. Or drop a note and let someone else do it ;) --Ekorren 14:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
You're not dense, this is valid question that is sometimes not easily answerable: To find out if a graticule is still virgin you should look:
  • On that graticule's page
  • In that graticule's category ("Category:Meetup in LAT LON")
  • On the neighboring graticule's pages. Sometimes in the early days of geohashing, before expedition reports got their own pages, it happened that people reported expeditions like "We from the A graticule went to the hashpoint in the B graticule and ...".
If you don't find any successful expedition you can take the ribbon. If some day a ninja expedition turns up, you'll lose it, but that's rare. - Danatar 14:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Ekorren and Danatar. Sara 15:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Category for virgin and "deflowered" graticules?

Wouldn't it makes sense to have two categories, for virgin graticules and "deflowered" graticules (or whatever the opposite is - ideas there?) -HiroProtagonist 21:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Not a bad idea at all. Someone would have to do the research for each one tagged to check for any ninja expeditions, but it's not a problem if some are tagged and some aren't. So go ahead. Category:Virgin graticules is obviously the right name. Category:Deflowered graticules works for me, but maybe that would bother someone. Category: Experienced graticules? Non-virgin? The existing Category:Active graticules doesn't cover it, because there are formerly active graticules, and there may be active graticules so challenging that no one has ever reached a point. -Robyn 22:17, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Kind of "why not", but needs work. I'm currently not convinced of the necessity, and fail to think up a way to mark 7000 graticules virgin that is both accurate and useful. If you only allow manual tagging after careful research, you won't get far - noone wants to research and tag all graticules manually. So, sooner or later someone would call for a bot, and that one would do a number of mistaggings, invalidating the whole thing. So you still have to look into the graticule page and do some research if you want to know whether a graticule is virgin, because you never can be sure the category is (still) correct. Since the latter problem doesn't apply to the non-virgin category, that one probably makes more sense. About the naming: Even as opposite to "virgin", "deflowered" sounds just bad as a category - especially since "virgin" is commonly used in a variety of contexts, but "deflowered" isn't. "Experienced" is much worse, even, and, taken by the word, not at all correct (a non-successful expedition may be much more of an experience...). I can't actually think of a short name I would like. --Ekorren 22:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
And how would Category:Non-virgin graticules work? -HiroProtagonist 23:05, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The point was not settled yet, neither was the name of the category fixed. It's at least bad style to ask, meet some opposition, and then just start off doing it. I still oppose against the category "Deflowered graticules". As far as I can see, the flowers around my home are still there, so the Stuttgart graticule has not been deflowered yet. --Ekorren 08:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I just thought that starting couldn't be amiss and (falsely?) assumed that changing the category name later would not be much work, so that it really wouldn't matter what to do first, deciding on the name or doing the categorisation. Sorry if I annoyed anyone with this. -HiroProtagonist 09:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In terms of categorization, I find these two categories useful. As with most categories, they would probably be used by humans only occasionally, but they might be a great help to sort things out for the bots. (I.e. parsing all non-virgin graticules for certain information may be quicker than parsing all graticules.) As for the naming, I would also tend to use something like "non-virgin" graticules, but renaming the category and changing the pages is really a matter of a few minutes for a bot.
Also, identifying non-virgin graticules can be done by parsing the Category:Coordinates reached. There will be a few false-negatives for the early expeditions (which don't have expedition pages yet) and ninja expeditions (sama sama). If there are volunteers to correct this for the early expeditions, we should be able to be pretty accurate. -- relet 08:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm okay with categories for virgin/non-virgin graticules if this helps the bots, but I don't want my graticule to have the ugly "deflowered graticule" category. It feels the same as being branded on the forehead with "slut" or something similar. - Danatar 13:22, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
How about the category Visited? It's accurate, it's not offensive, and it doesn't contain the letter "C" (waves to Robyn). --Thomcat 15:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Conquered? Hashed? Reached? --Meghan 16:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Conquered could work, although it has connotations of being completely subjugated and, well, the Vancouver graticule as a whole has by no means been conquered... :-) (I want to get something in the Tantalus Range/west of the Squamish River, Garibaldi Park, and Sechelt Inlet areas...)
Hashed or reached graticule would be accurate enough, although I think they sound a little awkward - maybe it would become less awkward with use. -- Rhonda 21:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Visited != Coordinates reached. Unsuccessful expeditions are visits, too. --ilpadre 20:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Vanquished! --Meghan 21:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
What problem are we trying to solve? It doesn't seem useful to mark all the virgin graticules. Most are "uninteresting" or completely inaccessible. Jiml 22:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)