Talk:Bingo geohash achievement

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All right, folks. Pretty basic idea. Go forth and vote below.

support - I like it to be an alternative to the minesweeper. It's in the same spirit of exploring beyond your own grat, and the different configuration might make it easier for some people who never even considered a minesweeper. --relet 20:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
support - what about intermediate steps like other achievements have (3, 4) ? --Crox 13:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
support --mykaDragonBlue [- i have no sig -] 15:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
support - I like the intermediate steps idea Jiml 20:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
support - One idea of an intermediate step is five contiguous that aren't in a line. Sara 01:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
support - The ru 08:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
support - Greenslime 20:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
support - Black_Hat_Guy
DNO - I'm not the biggest fan of it, but definitely have no objections to it. I just have a suggestion below. --aperfectring 22:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
support - A neat achievement that's not easy to get, but still attainable for almost every geohasher. Like relet said, an interesting alternative to the minesweeper. --ilpadre 07:42, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
support - --Fasanen 10:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC) "Bingo" is a lost case. Support for "Gomoku".--Fasanen 15:26, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
support - This is like a gift for me, since my home graticule is incompatible with the Minesweeper achievement. -- Jevanyn 15:32, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
needs work - I'm not a fan of the white space rule, but the arguments in favor of it are at least as good as the ones against it. At least I fail to see a clear consensus from the discussion below. Shall we vote on how it should be defined ? --Crox 16:58, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
needs work - I prefer the Connect Four idea below. -- Aaron of Mpls 05:45, 13 December 2011 (EST)
support - I support the whole concept, and added suggestions below to help make this happen Mystrsyko (talk) 22:59, 20 October 2014 (EDT)


Contents

[edit] What on earth is a "free space"?

Honestly, I can only guess what that part of the rules should mean, and I don't like guessing if it comes to rules, since experience shows that people take different guesses as the only possibility. Can someone change the wording into something that does not require being firm with the rules of a specific flavour of that specific game to be understood? --Ekorren 16:00, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Edited. Better? Sorry, Bingo's so common over here I didn't even think that it wasn't universal. - Wmcduff 18:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The basic concept of Bingo is known (we played it in some variant as children). Also my guess was probably right about the white space, but since this is not an integral and unavoidable part of the basic ruleset - and could mean just the opposite as well - I think it's much better to define it well. However, I'm not sure whether that part adds any quality to the achievement. --Ekorren 18:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to make this clear to non Bingo experts like me: Does it also count to have 5 graticules in a row without including your home graticule in that line?! --HiroProtagonist 06:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes - as I understand it in "traditional" Bingo, you only get the "free" square if you go through the center of the card, but you can get Bingo with any line of 5 squares. Jiml 07:18, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
So your home graticule needs to be the middle one of the line of 5 graticules? So "X X O X X" is okay but "X O X X X" not (where 'O' is your home grat, and 'X' another grat you hasehd in)? --HiroProtagonist 12:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Why not skip the "home graticule" stuff? I think that geohashes visited in five graticules in a row wherever they are should qualify for the achievement. --Fasanen 13:42, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
This is exactly what I had mentioned below. I think that people should be allowed to pick where they put their free square, and then it lies in the middle of their 5x5 (or possibly larger as well) square. We don't force minesweeper to be centered on a "home" graticule, why should we do that for bingo? --aperfectring 16:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I still think the whole "home graticule may be left blank" stuff is dumb and it should be 5 in a row, whatever those five are. I know people have explained it to me by some tradition of some specific bingo game rules. I understood that part and can't see how it makes the achievement any better. Drop that part, and I'm going to support the thing. --Ekorren 18:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I'd agree to drop the "free space" if we changed the name to something other than bingo. The name implies the specific game, and the free space is an inherent part of that game. --aperfectring 18:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
It may be an inherent part of how it is most often played in America, but there are other rules for the same game. --Ekorren 18:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Exactly, for example the German Wikipedia Aritcle on Bingo doesn't mention something like that, and although I have already played Bingo, I never heard of the "free space" thing before this Geohash Discussion. Therefore, I really don't see why it can't be called Bingo, even if the "free space" is dropped! --HiroProtagonist 18:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Then I suggest we rename the achievement whether we decide to keep a "free space" or not. I personally don't care if there is one. However, keeping this name will most assuredly be a point of questions and confusion, as evidenced by this discussion. --aperfectring 18:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Agree to that. I read that Bingo cards in UK and Australia even can be 3 x 9. I suggest we call this the "Gomoku achievement" instead.--Fasanen 20:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't think we should name the achievement after a game only a few people are familiar with - at least I have never heard about this game before. Whether we use a "free space" or not in the rules, the achievement should still be called "Bingo", because everybody has at least heard about that game and knows it has something to do with "five in a row" - the details are explained on the achievement page anyway. Personally, I support the idea of a "free space", if the geohasher is allowed to choose only one free space in a 5x5 grid, and it has to be in the center. This won't make the achievement significantly easier (unless the free space graticule is some kind of Monster Island surrounded by Volcano Lake of Deathly Fire), since a hasher probably travels trough the center graticule a lot anyway on his way to the surrounding graticules and will have plenty of chances to visit coordinates there also. I say let's just create the achievement with or without free space and see where it goes. People are going to having fun either way. --ilpadre 07:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Idea: Levels

What about having the possibility to customize the number of graticules hashed? There should be a minimum (5 looks good) to claim the achievement but in case you succeed in a larger number, it would be nice to be able to insert that into the ribbon as an optional parameter. --Ekorren 18:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

One way of upgrading this ribbon is to change the required sqares, just like real bingo. Some rounds you're playing for 5 in a row (horizontal, vertical and/or diagonal), an x-shape, a square around the edges of the 5x5 square, or the total blackout (super-mega minesweeper??). --Meghan 21:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] "Home" Graticule

Does it need a definition? Can we even define it? I'll favor letting the person define it as they wish, knowing that the concept is that it is where you live/work/spend lots of time. Besides, after a while geohashing, you probably will get your Home graticule. Jiml 20:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

You have a point. For most people, defining the place of permanent residence as home graticule would be perfect. All other definitions I can think of are too ambigous or likely to change. However, also the permanent residence isn't always that permanent. What happens if someone uses the "white space" by not hashing in his/her home graticule, claims the achievement and then moves away? I think (s)he should be allowed to keep the achievement but not upgrade it by adding further graticules (if we introduce levels) until the space has been filled up. My own opinion about this is that the white space rule should be removed since I can't see how it makes the achievement any better - it's just another rule without any apparent effect but with some definition problem. People will go to lengths to get a hash in their home graticule if it's a difficult one anyway, and it will hardly happen that someone would be able to take advantage of the white space rule. If someone's home graticule is so difficult that it's virtually impossible to hash there, the neighbouring ones probably are not so much better, so the Bingo line to get won't probably include the home graticule at all. --Ekorren 21:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the white space rule should be removed in my opinion too. --Crox 22:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd actually say to leave the free space in. The point is to give someone a different configuration of graticules and the free space fits with the bingo game. One of the aspects is to let people who have a difficult home graticule have a bit of a break. I think you're too worried about making things "easy." We don't have that many people geohashing on any sort of regular basis. An "easier" achievement might encourage them. Besides, without the free space, it's "Gomoku"/"Five in a row", not Bingo. Jiml 00:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

On all the Bingo cards I've ever seen, the free space is the middle one, so why not do it that way to avoid the "what is your home graticule" problem (although I think everyone can easily identify his home graticule). In my opinion the white space rule is unnecessary, but it should stay in because it's funny, makes it more like Bingo and it makes no difference. -Robyn 02:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

If someone wants move "home" to make themselves eligible for something or other, let them. How does it hurt you? If the community can't tell the difference between mean-spirited "cheating" and someone who is trying to honor the spirit of geohashing but isn't meeting the letter of the rule, than Geohashing has a much larger problem than the fact that a rule is or isn't being violated. Jiml 00:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The achievement description needs to be explicit that the five in a row may be horizontal, vertical or diagonal. I also think you should exclude airhashes, because otherwise pilots do it too easily. -Robyn 02:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Really? We have maybe two pilots in 2.5 years of geohashing all over the world. We've had maybe 3 airhashes in all that time. Doesn't seem like anyone is interested in burning their own Jet A for this. Jiml 07:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I say it specifically because I'm a pilot and I feel badly about my smash and grab airhashes. I don't even do them anymore unless they absolutely can't be helped. The other day I my track took me up the right side of the highway and the hash was on the left side of the highway but I left it there, unhashed. -Robyn 12:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Also, taking care of it as a potential issue now could help to avoid confusion in the future Alex 12:37, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I see no reason to exclude air hashes. If someone thinks they're too easy, then they can restrain themselves as Robyn is doing. once we get into limiting achievements by the mode of transport we start to enter all sorts of interesting and annoying places. I drive to hashes a lot, particularly those outside my home grat (and enjoy doing so), should that be considered too easy as well? Should only bikes and public transport get achievements? I don't personally do this for the ribbons, but I do think this sort of ruling makes the whole thing too complicated and adds too much potential for conflict. once we start, it would be hard to go back. --mykaDragonBlue [- i have no sig -] 07:26, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Ahhh - I didn't know you were restraining yourself. I assumed they just weren't working out for you. I guess then it might make sense to add the restriction. Jiml 18:19, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I think we should have your "Home" graticule be along the same lines as Minesweeper, in that you can pick it yourself. Why does it matter which graticule you choose for your "Home"? It doesn't make the achievement any easier to get if you pick something other than the graticule which you live in. As long as we define the "Home" graticule to be the center of the 5x5 grid, I don't think it would really be able to be abused too easily. This also allows people who live on peninsulas (here's to you South Florida geohashers!) to be able to achieve this without moving. This definition could cause issues with the larger lengths (free space can't be in the middle of a 6x6 grid), but we can always have a rule that the larger lines must be an odd length long. --aperfectring 22:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Why didn't this happen?

This has lots of support and no virulent opposition. Why is it Radio Yerevan and not a real achievement?

Basically it didn't happen because one group insisted on the fact that a line is only complete if it has a gap in it, and the other would prefer to define complete by not having a gap. Over this unsolvable cultural incomprehension the achievement fell into stasis to avoid further escalation. --Ekorren 13:53, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
There isn't a single person opposing it. I think the anti-gappers were just nitpicking.
You're wrong there. I'm serious with opposing the white space, because I believe this is not a vital part of Bingo, just a frequently but not always added extra rule in some parts of the world, and it doesn't add anything but confusion to the achievement/experience. No one ever was able to give a good reason why that rule should be here other than that in some, but not all, countries it's often, but not always, used.
However, I didn't vote oppose because I like to have discussions settled before taking conclusions from one possible outcome. Also I don't oppose the achievement as such, but only this rule, and I believe that most people who voted in favor of the achievement didn't actually decide on this part but on the achievement as a whole. --Ekorren 14:20, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I believe that opposition that is intended to prevent the creation of an achievement as it stands should be represented by an oppose vote in the appropriate section. That way the status of the achievement is visible at a glance. This one looked like multiple support, one DNO and no opposition. The oppose vote is not permanent, just an indication of what is required to settle the discussion. You're never going to get complete consensus in the discussion.
It's unlikely that someone would get a bingo without achieving their home graticule, it has to be home, and if they did it would likely indicate a significant problem with their home graticule, deserving of a break.
So what you actually say is that you agree to me in that the rule doesn't mean anything to the actual achievement. So why is it so important to have, then? Why not just leave it out? --Ekorren 14:20, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I think it's there because it's silly and funny, because it's part of the spirit of the original proposal, and because it might just help someone in a screwy graticule get a ribbon. If Ekorren feels that strongly about the free square being a bad idea and the person who proposed it feels that strongly about it belonging there, then I guess it should die, but it seems silly. You wanted the achievement to exist strongly enough to Radio Yerevan it, but not strongly enough to laugh off a loophole that makes no difference to you? Do you think a lot of people will get this ribbon due to the rule who didn't deserve it? Silly rules are common, like the rule encouraging cheating in the déjà vu achievement. -Robyn 14:30, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I like extra rules if they make sense, solve problematic special cases, are funny, or add to the experience. However, IMHO none of these criteria is fulfilled by the white space rule. You might claim it does make sense or is funny - but then, that's valid only from an american point of view, if at all. For others it's just an arbitrary extra rule which does not make sense and doesn't improve anything. Also there's the cheating issue you noticed yourself. This calls for further explanations and further complications. I don't feel strong enough against that rule that I would prefer to trash the achievement, but I truly believe that this rule is of no benefit, and a small and simple "five in a row" would do the thing better. And also it wouldn't need long explanations what that extra rule is about and why it is there. --Ekorren 16:04, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I do think you should fix up the ribbon to either show the endpoints of the line, or say a vertical/horizontal/diagonal line centred on <graticule>. I like the second idea better. -Robyn 14:06, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I like the first one better, actually, since it leaves the option to present longer lines. I actually upgraded from 4 directly to 6 - so, which 5 would it be, then? I even wouldn't mind having a list of longest lines - this might be an extra incentive for people to go exploring outside of their usual area. --Ekorren 16:04, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
Would you be happier if the free square were given as an optional rule for those in countries whose bingo games have free squares? I do get that the free square rule is arbitrary, unnecessary, complicating and may make the achievement easier for some people, but all those things are actually endearing to me. I guess I like the idea of trying to make geohashing like other games, akin to Battleship games.
If you want to create arbitrarily long lines then it ceases to be a Bingo achievement, and turns into a long-line achievement. If that's what you want, propose it. Could be cool actually, with long straight lines and long wiggly lines. What would it be? Snake? Some long German name meaning Contiguousgeohashsesinastraightorwigglylineachievement? (That would be hilarious to me). I'd support that, despite the overlap with Bingo. How about a Bingo subachievement within the long line achievement, making Bingo unnecessary? How about the ultimate long line achievement that circles the globe? (Okay NOW that's silly).
Meanwhile, if you oppose Bingo with free squares enough to block the achievement, please post an oppose vote stating that it's just the free square you object to, and then WMcDuff can decide whether the free square is integral enough to the proposed concept to be worth abandoning the achievement for. If you don't oppose it strongly enough to literally oppose it, and it doesn't end up being part of a long line (terrible name, needs something better) achievement, then I think it should be created with this discussion and your objections duly immortalized on this talk page. -Robyn 16:31, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
I said I don't oppose the white space rule enough to block the achievement for this. I, however, don't like it for reasons stated. And I assume the inability to come to a conclusion here was what pushed the achievement into stasis, which was the original question.
I really can't follow your point of "It's not Bingo with longer lines". After all, it's not called "Standardized Northern American Gambling Hall Bingo Achievement". You want it to represent one specific variant of Bingo, deliberately choosing to deny that Bingo is a group of games and does not have universal fixed rules where every deviation gets you sued if you still call it Bingo. I'm deliberately refusing to accept that one variant rules them all, and try to make a good achievement in the context of geohashing out of the idea. Five may be a common number, however, there's no reason why five has to be the only number. It could just as well be played with a goal of four, six or whatever number comes to mind. Just as it can be played with or without white space. Both might not be commonly done in northern american gambling halls, but that doesn't make it illegit.
If longer lines would be supported, I'd see it like e.g. with the consecutive geohash, which you earn with a small chain but can list longer chains if you manage to do them. So why not make it the same and still call it Bingo? Four for a honorary mention, five for the achievement, open end for those who like? Anything above five would be purely optional anyway. --Ekorren 17:11, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
Maybe you should post a picture of a German bingo card. Your game is clearly unlike the one under discussion. The reason bingo is five by five is that the word B I N G O appears at the top, and the caller says, "Under the B: 7" and "Under the G: 63". The letters define the columns. Wouldn't you need a different word if it were a different number of squares, thus making it no longer be bingo? I'm now leaning towards abandoning this achievement. You are right. It's hopelessly stalled. I wonder how the United Nations gets anything done. I don't think it should be turned into a "take it if you want it" achievement though. Bad precedent. Propose something new with arbitrary lines and I'll support that. -Robyn 17:35, 26 May 2011 (EDT)
In Switzerland we play a game called "Loto" in French ("Lotto" in German, Italian and Romansh), which looks identical to what Wikipedia lists as Bingo (Commonwealth). I've never heard anyone call it "Bingo" though. Organizing a loto is a common way for local sports clubs to raise funds. HTH. I'm fine with having an achievement called "Bingo geohash" based on the US version of the game. --Crox 05:10, 28 May 2011 (EDT)

[edit] Connect Four Achievement

Wikipedia

Based on the connect four game, we could have the Connect Four Achievement where "Four" is actually an integer >= four.

The rules are well known and don't have national variations (stand by to be proven wrong). Might this solve the problem? --Sourcerer 20:21, 26 June 2011 (GMT)

I'd support a Connect Four Achievement, with additional levels for n > 4. --Woodveil 11:54, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Me too. The need to connect only four graticules will also make the basic achievement a bit easier, with higher levels allowing some kind of highscore like we have at the Consecutive geohash achievement. --ilpadre 06:22, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

[edit] Upgradable and other suggestions

I like the whole concept of this achievement, white space or not, connect four, etc. I think a workable solution might be to combine all these ideas into an upgradable achievement, similar to the Maker Achievement. If you line up 4, it's the "Connect 4 achievement". If you connect 5 with a "white space" in the center, it's upgraded (more like lateral-graded) to the "Bingo achievement". And solid lines of 5 or longer could be different levels of the same achievement (Line Master, for example).

Perhaps it should just be the latter, starting at 4, and the white space idea is a "Bingo honorable mention" instead.

The thing is, all the ideas presented so far have been fantastic, and I don't think petty cultural differences or minor ambiguity should block this from happening in some form. Mystrsyko (talk) 22:55, 20 October 2014 (EDT)